Given all of Israel’s problems, Opposition Leader Yair Lapid is surprisingly optimistic.
Meeting with The Times of Israel in his Yesh Atid party’s headquarters on the second story of a modest low-rise Tel Aviv office block on Thursday, the centrist former prime minister positioned himself as the leader of a democratic movement straddling the middle ground between the country’s two historic political traditions — the left-wing Labor Zionism of David Ben-Gurion and the liberal nationalism of Menachem Begin’s Revisionists. Indeed, he has placed pictures of both of those iconic prime ministers on his office wall.
Despite the deep divisions generated first by the government’s judicial overhaul plan, then by the failure to thwart Hamas’s October 7 invasion and slaughter, and now by nearly a year of fighting in the Gaza Strip, the anguish over the 109 hostages still held captive there, and relentless conflict in the country’s north, Lapid believes that Israeli politics are no longer defined by a rivalry between left and right, but rather by a conflict over the country’s very identity as a democracy. He is adamant that he represents a majority large enough to win back power when Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s increasingly fractious coalition falls. And he believes this will happen soon.
“We have to be able to remember that there is another option to what is going on right now: We” — that is, Israel — “can be what we were supposed always to be. We can be happy, we can be optimistic, we can be hopeful. We can be functional — which we are not right now,” he elaborated as he leaned back in a chair in his office, a yellow hostage ribbon pinned to a suit jacket worn over a t-shirt and above black jeans.
“We can have great relations with the international community. We can restart the economy. The only thing is we need management that is functional in order to come back to our roots, which is an optimistic, original, and smart nation in so many ways,” said Lapid, who was prime minister from July-December 2022 before the collapse of his and Naftali Bennett’s government. Further stressing the glass half full, he added, is that Israel is “lucky enough” to be witnessing a US presidential campaign “in which the two candidates are great friends of Israel.”
But first, he believes, Netanyahu has got to go. Indeed, Lapid stressed, the prime minister should have resigned on October 8, because “all the signs, all the red flags, all the warnings” were there for him to see. Netanyahu, charges Lapid, had been briefed on the looming dangers. “And he ignored them all. This is why it wouldn’t have happened on our shift — and this is why he shouldn’t have been prime minister since October 8.”
The interview was conducted in English. This transcript has been edited for clarity and brevity.
The Times of Israel: We are facing extremely serious internal threats which are exacerbated by the fact that we are so divided within. It’s nice that you can see all the things that we ought to be and should be, but we’re not there.
Yair Lapid: It’s interesting because, of course, as a first reaction to what happened on October 7, we talked about unity, that we can only win together. But if you look at the world today, Afghanistan is united, Syria is united, Russia is very united. Unity is not a democratic habit.
The ability to bridge the things you do not agree upon is what differentiates democracies from other ways [of government]. Very non-united countries, democracies with conflicts, have won two world wars, reached the moon, and gave rights to minorities, to African-Americans, to women.
So it doesn’t matter that Netanyahu is dividing the country?
The thing that matters about Netanyahu is that he’s not working for the country. I have no problem with people who work for the country through a different ideology— with different methods, even— as long as they work for the country.
Netanyahu is not working for the country. The only thing he cares about is staying in power… He’s interested in power per se and not the power to do good
Netanyahu would claim that he is working for the country but was betrayed and let down by everybody and that he is the only person who can fix it.
The only thing he cares about is staying in power. He’s been in power for too long. He’s interested in power per se and not the power to do good. There is right and wrong in this world. There are people who are working for the country, and there are people who are not.
The fact that Netanyahu is saying things about unity or divisiveness doesn’t matter. You have to look at what he’s doing, and what he’s doing right now is not making the hostage deal that he should be, not building the budget for the good of everybody. He doesn’t respect the sacrifices this country is making. He’s flying around in this private jet. He hasn’t been to one kibbutz since October 7.
The fact that Netanyahu is saying things about unity doesn’t matter. You have to look at what he’s doing
So he cannot tell me that he’s for the country. He’s for himself. You know what? He lost his soul. Can you say soulless? So he’s soulless.
In 2011 he agreed to a deal that freed 1,027 security prisoners, including [October 7 architect and now overall Hamas leader] Yahya Sinwar, for one soldier — and now he’s not prepared to make a deal that would release more than 100 people. And his argument is that there are too many risks, we can’t abandon the Egyptian border again…
But the evidence says otherwise. The war started on October 7. He, as the prime minister, sent troops to the Philadelphi Corridor in May. That is almost eight months afterwards.
For eight months, you didn’t think the Philadelphi Corridor is the most important thing. All of a sudden, this is the only thing that matters. I’m not saying that the Philadelphi Corridor is not important. It is important. [But] it is way more important to finalize the hostage deal.
It will also calm the north. But more than that, Israeli society will never heal unless the hostages are back. And we can actually use the break [from fighting] to rebuild and reshape Israeli society and the army for the challenges we face — and make sure everybody understands that now we have an ability to be more proactive about what is going on up north, not to mention Iran, which has always been the biggest challenge.
And this [hostage deal] is also the only path towards the regional coalition that is essential to [dealing with Iran].
Why do you think he is stalling?
Because [National Security Minister Itamar] Ben Gvir and [Finance Minister Bezalel] Smotrich are going to bolt the coalition. They say so, and he’s all about politics. He has to maintain the coalition.
Should he have resigned after Hamas’s attack?
He should have resigned on October 8. If I was the prime minister on October 7, I wouldn’t be the prime minister on October 8. That’s the responsible thing to do. That’s the human thing to do.
And then what? Call for elections?
I assume that if he had resigned, we would have had a unity government within two days. On October 7, I had a meeting with him at 4:30 in the afternoon and I said to him: “Listen, get rid of the lunatics. Let’s create a new cabinet.” I told him, You won’t be able to handle this with [far-right ministers party leaders] Ben Gvir and Smotrich [in your government]; let’s have a unity government.
I was the first person to use the phrase, “The biggest disaster to happen to the Jewish people since the Holocaust.” I already used it on October 7. The first time I used it was with him.
You didn’t tell him to resign? You called for a unity government?
Yeah, at the time. Because I know him.
He said no. He said, You can join — with them. And I said, No, there will be no way of managing this [with Ben Gvir and Smotrich in the government]. That’s where it ended. At 6:30 the same day, October 7, I had a press conference and I said we have to have a unity government; they have to go, because they are part of what brought us here and because we won’t be able to manage a war with them.
Hamas had been planning October 7 for a long time. Do you believe that if you had still been prime minister it would have happened under your watch?
The answer is no with an exclamation mark, because we understood that our first and foremost priority was to make sure these things don’t happen.
Hamas’s motive was always there. It always wanted to kill Jews. Its abilities were built rapidly since Netanyahu started to [send] suitcases of money into Gaza. But there was no opportunity. They knew that we were on our toes. They knew that we were on alert.
When I was prime minister, I initiated Operation Breaking Dawn [in response to indications of an imminent Palestinian Islamic Jihad attack against civilians or soldiers on the border] and we killed leaders of Islamic Jihad.
We were alert, and there was no way on earth that if the Chief of Staff and his senior generals, had come into the room — as happened with Netanyahu — and said, You’re risking Israel’s security; your judicial reform is actually undermining our deterrence because our enemy sees this as an opportunity, that I or [Bennett] would ignore it.
So there’s no way on earth this could have happened [on our watch].
I remind you that on September 20 I held a press conference and I said, Something horrible is going to happen. And Gaza was mentioned. And I said, Our parents are going to sit in safe-rooms. Our children are going to die.
On September 20 I held a press conference and I said, Something horrible is going to happen. And Gaza was mentioned. And I said, Our parents are going to sit in safe-rooms. Our children are going to die… I had been at the Prime Minister’s Office for the security briefing, and Netanyahu was there. He heard the same things I heard. I’m telling you, it was out there — all the signs, all the red flags, all the warnings — and he ignored them all. This is why it wouldn’t have happened on our shift — and why he shouldn’t have been prime minister since October 8
And I did this not because I had a sudden vision, but because I was at the Prime Minister’s Office for the security briefing, and Netanyahu was there. So he heard the same things I heard, from General [Avi] Gil, [the prime minister’s military secretary]. And then I read the intelligence materials that he saw.
Everybody in my team told me: Don’t hold this press conference. Nobody cares. Everybody’s preoccupied with the demonstrations and protests [surrounding the judicial overhaul.]
I said, You know what, this is my responsibility — to tell the Israeli people something terrible is going to happen, security-wise. We’re going to hold this press conference. And we held this press conference.
(Lapid, in his September 20 press conference (Hebrew link), declared: Ahead of Yom Kippur, I am compelled to warn the citizens of Israel: We are drawing close to a multi-front confrontation. According to the security establishment, the number of alerts in Judea and Samaria is unprecedented. And the recent events at the Gaza border are precisely of the kind that in the past have led to rounds of fighting.
Israeli governments in the past, including Netanyahu-led governments, have known how to calm things down on the ground, bolstering and deploying additional forces, imposing closures, carrying out targeted assassinations, intelligence efforts, appropriate action with the Palestinian Authority, the Egyptians, the Jordanians. That’s how our government stopped the wave of terrorism last year. That is not what is happening today. The number of those murdered in terror attacks has doubled since the government came to power last year. And what’s even more dangerous is that the government is not coordinated with the security establishment. All the heads of the security establishment — the IDF, the Shin Bet, the police, the intelligence branches — are warning the government and the cabinet about an eruption of violence.”
He went on to charge that Ben Gvir and Smotrich were repeatedly ignoring the recommendations of the defense establishment to act in a careful and responsible manner, including as regards to policies relating to Palestinian security prisoners, and accused Netanyahu of having lost control of his ministers. He continued, “Those who will pay the price are our children, who will have to go back again into Jenin refugee camp and again into Gaza and, possibly, again into Lebanon. Those who will pay the price are our parents, who will sit in the safe-rooms.”
“If Netanyahu does not rein in Ben Gvir and Smotrich, we will pay the price in lost lives,” he said. The prime minister “needs to bang on the table today, rein in his irresponsible ministers and work together with the heads of the security establishment to calm the situation on the ground. If he acts responsibly, he will find… that the opposition will give him its full support.)
I’m telling you, it was out there — all the signs, all the red flags, all the warnings — and he ignored them all. This is why it wouldn’t have happened on our shift — and this is why he shouldn’t have been prime minister since October 8.
You recently predicted that the government would fall by the end of the year, but a senior coalition leader recently told us, for instance, that despite increasing infighting, his party has no intention of quitting.
You know when coalitions are falling apart? When these kinds of conversations are taking place between journalists and senior politicians. The fact that we are constantly discussing the question of whether or not the coalition will survive means the coalition will not survive.
November 5 is the American election. On December 2, Bibi is supposed to take the stand in his trial. Things are going to happen within that month.
Right now, over the last couple of days of the Knesset [session], they couldn’t pass anything. We’ve won votes all of a sudden. We are supposedly a much smaller opposition than they were, and we are winning votes now. So the whole thing is falling apart.
What’s the process by which this government could fall?
In an unexpected manner. Do you remember the ‘parking lot night’ [in 2020] when we overthrew the Bibi-[Benny] Gantz government? When people came from the [Knesset] parking lot all of a sudden and voted and the government fell?
I formed a government [in 2021] that everybody told me I was not going to form [because it had] never happened that way before. It never happens in the way you predict, but it will happen.
How are you working together with other members of the opposition to win the next election? Are you currently involved in talks to create any united front or to help any of the other opposition parties create unified lists?
I’m working with everybody. In the opposition, we have two centrist parties, two right-wing parties — to the right of Likud — one very left-wing party, [the Democrats], which is the combination of Labor and Meretz, and two Arabic parties. This is quite diverse. So you work in a different manner. Instead of getting everybody into the same room, you’re working separately with everyone.
But whenever it has been necessary so far, we knew how to march the 56 Knesset members of the opposition into the Knesset plenum and vote the right way or work together in committees to do what needs to be done.
I’m telling you, for the sacred cause of overthrowing this horrible government of ours, we will be very functional as a group.
Despite polling horribly since October 7, Netanyahu’s favorability has improved recently.
He had a good month. I don’t think he’s rising. I think this is his top. We all knew that when he goes to Congress, it helps him a lot. And the Deif, Haniyah and Shukr [assassinations] are successes. Only the killing of Sinwar, God-willing, will compare to this. But I don’t think it changes the fact that for a huge majority of Israelis he is someone who cannot be trusted.
Do you think that the opposition will win enough mandates to be able to form an alternate government? And would you be willing to consider the inclusion of the mainly Arab Ra’am party in your coalition again?
I had an interesting conversation about this with [Ra’am leader] Mansour Abbas, and we both came to the conclusion that Ra’am cannot be the 61st mandate.
Israeli society, especially after October 7, but believe me before, is not prepared for a reality in which the government is totally dependent on the votes of an Arabic party. As moderate and interesting a leader as Mansour is, and I like Mansour and I appreciate Mansour, and I want to work with Mansour, it’s going to be different from the government we had before. Fortunately enough, the polls [show that] we will have 61 seats for a government, and then we can discuss what happens next.
You think there’s a majority in Israel for a mainstream government?
There’s a huge group within Israeli society that says this concept of a Jewish democratic state didn’t work. [They say] it’s time for us to make a decision whether this country is Jewish or democratic, and we want it to be Jewish.
The positive thing is that the group of people who say “no way” to that is way bigger. We are more people than they are because [this debate has] changed the political frame. It’s not about left and right anymore.
So it is now Zionist, nationalist liberals against people who believe Israel shouldn’t be a democracy, and we are the majority. The elections are going to be about this, and the next government is going to reflect this majority. There’s a huge majority of people, including Avigdor Liberman’s voters and Bennett’s voters, who understand the need to maintain an Israeli democracy, and who still believe in the concept of a Jewish democratic state.
And how do you deal with the Haredim?
This government is the worst that the Haredim had in years in terms of results. Their politicians are very practical people. They understand more than most that they need a functional country, that the problem they have with this government is that it is totally dysfunctional.
I believe that we will be able to talk with them, but they have to understand that there is a basic principle that has become more fundamental than it was before, which is everybody has the same duties and the same rights.
Do you have any regrets about your time as prime minister? Is there anything you would do differently the next time around?
Yes, I will have a bigger coalition. (Laughs)
I don’t see what I do as a zero-sum game. You make mistakes. You try to make sure that they’re not fatal. And I think people knew that the intentions were good, that we cared about people who didn’t vote for us, not only about the people who voted for us. And we were a very functional government. I’ll give you an example: when we left office, we had a surplus of more than 10 billion shekels, which hadn’t happened in decades.
If Netanyahu does sign a ceasefire/hostage-release deal, what should the postwar order look like in Gaza, and how can Israel prevent a Hamas resurgence?
Everybody in his right mind understands or is saying approximately the same thing: It should be some sort of regional coalition. It so happens that it’s the same regional coalition we need opposite Iran: the Saudis, Emiratis, Bahrainis, Moroccans and, of course, Egypt and Jordan.
They have to have a very limited, supervised branch of a deradicalized Palestinian Authority. At the beginning, you’re going to have just a branch of [the PA] with some sort of a Chinese wall between them and the corruption and the incitement of the current Palestinian Authority. But basically, it is just technical and almost to save face that the Palestine Authority is involved. What we need is the Saudis.
I’ll give you an example. If you want to implement programs against incitement, the Emirates has probably the best programs in the world for this, and they are more than willing to share and to be part of this. You’re going to need some boots on the ground from those countries, and some of them are willing.
This is basically what you need. And Israel will sit on the perimeter with the ability to penetrate and go in, like we have in Areas A and B in the West Bank.
Do you think Netanyahu will actually sign a deal?
I’m in the praying phase right now. I’m praying that he will, because unlike him, I’m meeting with hostage families on a daily basis. Unlike him, I was at the funerals yesterday of Roee [Munder] and Nadav [Popplewell and other hostages at Kibbutz Nir Oz].
And probably unlike him, I have a real sense of the devastating effect on Israeli society. We will not be able to regain our inner strength as a nation unless there is a deal [that brings the hostages back].
Since the beginning of the war, whenever he had to choose between politics and the greater good, he chose politics. But I’m still praying that this will change.
We will not be able to regain our inner strength as a nation unless there is a deal [that brings the hostages back]
You mentioned the PA having a limited role in Gaza. Do you believe that a Palestinian state is still a viable policy goal? And, if so, how far has the horizon for that been set back by October 7?
Quite a bit. Right now, the best that we can do is to maintain the option for the distant future. The fact that the PA, for example, didn’t have it in them to condemn the mass murders, the rapes, the children that were burned alive, the hostages, provokes despair, even for those of us who were quite stubborn in maintaining this very Jewish idea that one day there’ll be peace.
I would say in the next election and probably in the one after that, this is not going to be the subject. But then again, you want to make sure that if somewhere down the very long road, the conditions change and the Palestinians finally take responsibility for their own lives, that there will still be an option of separating from them. Because it’s the right thing to do as Jews and as democrats.
How shocked are you by the soaring antisemitism around the world?
My father would have told me that it was always there. The question is, What can we do about it? Or in this case, What could we have done? On October 8, the world was very pro-Israel. And then the government did everything wrong: The very unnecessary open conflict with the American administration. The fact that nobody is actually in charge of the way we look abroad. The fact that there is no strategy. I’m not aware of a single meeting in the government talking about, What are we going to do about TikTok?…
However abysmal the government’s public diplomacy and some of its policies, it’s not all the government’s fault. There is a wellspring of incredibly well-orchestrated malice.
The problem I have is that we have lost the battle with crowds we should not have. And if we were to win the battle with those crowds, they would fight for us.
Is the worst over? Or do you think, with Iran in mind in particular, that we are not yet out of the woods?
There was a big cloud or shadow moving towards us, and we decided to look the other way. Nobody’s looking the other way right now
Interestingly enough, I think the chances are that we’re going to do much better, for two reasons. One is because the real problem was awareness. We were not aware of the fact that something horrible was there. Or rather, there was a big cloud or shadow moving towards us, and we decided to look the other way. Nobody’s looking the other way right now.
You’re sure about that, even regarding Iran and Hezbollah?
Actually, I’m sometimes worried about an overcorrection in terms of no longer trusting any intelligence that’s being brought to the table. We lost faith in our ability to analyze what is going on. So I’m telling you, I think we can analyze what is going on.
[And it underlines that] we must reorganize this regional coalition because we cannot afford a nuclear Iran reorganizing the Middle East into some sort of hegemony. We cannot allow this to happen and therefore, we will have no option but to go the other way, which is organizing a regional coalition.
This will also create unbelievable opportunities in terms of our economy, in terms of our ability to become part of the Middle East in a smarter way than we are doing now, and maybe in the very distant future, in our ability to live in peace with our neighbors.
There’s one caveat. It’s not going to happen with this government. They’re not capable of doing this. But it’s going to happen.
Despite being a proud centrist and critic of Likud, you keep a portrait of its founder, Menachem Begin, right next to one of David Ben-Gurion in your office. What message are you trying to send?
It’s there to provoke that question. (Laughs.)
The answer is, of course, that Ben-Gurion, today, would never win the leadership primaries in today’s Labor Party because he was too much of a right-winger for them. He believed in the use of force. He was biblical in many ways. He said once that the Bible is our mandate for this country.
And of course, Menachem Begin would never win the primaries in Likud these days because he was too much of a lefty — because he believed in the Supreme Court and the rule of law — and he was not corrupt.
So I have invited the two gentlemen to take sanctuary here.
And you see there’s a little space between the two pictures? This is me. I’m the little space between the two pictures.
