Director James Gray on memoir film, Trump and growing up Jewish in working-class NY
Opening in NY and LA Oct. 28, ‘Armageddon Time’ is a fictionalized account rich with details Jews of a certain place and time will pick up on, and a universal ethical dilemma
NEW YORK — James Gray has been making remarkable, low-volume movies for over 20 years. All of them have drawn from his personal history (even, weirdly, “Ad Astra,” which is set in outer space), but with “Armageddon Time” he has made his first memoir film.
It is set in Queens, New York, where he grew up in a working-class Jewish family. The marvelous young actor Banks Repeta plays a 12-year-old version of James (named Paul), and the plot centers around a mostly true incident that has haunted Gray his entire life. At public school, he befriends a young Black boy (played by Jaylin Webb) who comes from an extremely economically disadvantaged background. The naturally independently-minded Paul begins getting into some trouble, so his parents (played by Jeremy Strong and Anne Hathaway) send him to a private school, bankrolled by Hathaway’s refugee parents (Anthony Hopkins and Tovah Feldshuh.)
This might not seem like a framework that can hold a story of seismic moral tumult, but that’s why James Gray is a genius. (See his other films if you have not already, particularly “The Immigrant,” “The Lost City of Z,” and “The Yards.”) In the background hum of “Armageddon Time,” which all may not be attuned to, there’s evidence of the weird neither-here-nor-there place where Jews fit in American culture — they are victims of antisemitism but also possess white privilege. Paul’s parents are still figuring out how to build a future as first-generation Americans, but seem unaware of their own moments of racism. It is a very specific, and very real needle that Gray successfully threads.
In addition to moments of great drama, this movie has a thousand little flourishes that will resonate with Gen X Jews and New Yorkers, in the mannerisms, props and throwaway lines. The title comes from The Clash’s version of the song “Armagideon Time,” and also a weird response that then-candidate Ronald Reagan gave to a Christian broadcaster. (“What a shmuck!” the father calls back at the TV.) The seeds of our current political climate are evident not just in the news — when young Paul ends up at private school, he finds himself interacting with members of the Trump family. (This is taken directly from real life.)
I had the great privilege to speak with the extremely gregarious James Gray at the Mandarin Oriental Hotel in Manhattan the day before “Armageddon Time” showed at the New York Film Festival. The film opens in New York and Los Angeles on October 28, then expands elsewhere the following week.
This interview has been edited for clarity.
The Times of Israel: I’ve been listening to The Clash nonstop, which I always think of as a New York band, even though they were English.
James Gray: Well, they came here a lot, and also a lot of their musical development came from New York. “The Magnificent Seven” on the “Sandinista!” album is their version of rap, which they first heard seeing kids from the Bronx performing on the street in Times Square. That’s how New York’s street culture permeated into wider culture in the world. And I think they were more popular here than anywhere else at the time.
The only white band that can play reggae in my book.
“Armagideon Time” was written by Willie Williams in 1977 or so. I tried to use that version in the film, but it’s in a major key. [Gray then demonstrates by singing the guitar riff and impersonating Williams, forgetting that I am getting this on tape and can blackmail him.]
The Clash change it to a minor key, and Joe Strummer’s voice [Gray sings a little] has a darkness and a danger. The bass just goes “boom, boom, boom-be-boom, boom-be-boom” and he plays it over and over like a motherfucker with no embellishments. It’s a gutsy thing to do. They pull it off. It’s cultural appropriation, but so is everything.
I’m glad we’re talking about choices and details, because for someone like me, who is a smidge younger than you, but grew up in a similar milieu, this is an incredible movie. For our readers around the world, however, can you explain to them the cultural resonance of an Entenmann’s box on the kitchen table?
You are the first person to ask me about that.
Now, on Queens Blvd., there was the Entenmann’s Thrift Shop. My dad would pull in and load up the station wagon with cakes and donuts that he’d put in the freezer. He loved those chocolate donuts, had a real attachment to them. He would take them with this drink called Postum — and I don’t even know what the fuck that stuff is.
Some kind of coffee substitute.
Well, I know what it is, I just mean I never drank it. Have you?
Uhhhh, no.
I’m sure it is barely potable, really awful. But he would take the Entenmann’s chocolate donut and dunk it in there, this would be his breakfast.
The chocolate, not the crumb cake ones, which we called the rabbit turd ones.
No, never the rabbit turds, chocolate glaze with the yellow interior. A staple of the family’s diet.
This is a window into the verisimilitude of your film. Let’s talk about the dinner scene, with the great aunt trying to talk seriously about the Holocaust and kids acting —
My behavior in the movie is quite awful in many cases. I don’t want to say I deserved to get beaten, but I deserved something.
What I love is how the mother character (Anne Hathaway) is mad, but you can tell she also thinks it’s a little funny. That kid knows he’s not gonna get in real trouble acting disrespectful at the table.
One hundred percent true, and even after when things get a little more serious, and my father is hitting me in the bathroom… she wasn’t “against” it, exactly… but, she… well, it’s like I show it in the movie, she’s standing outside the door saying “this is necessary.”
What it is for me, really, is showing an act of ineptitude for both parents. They simply did not know what to do. I have three children, and I am sure I am making tons of mistakes — but they are not those mistakes. I’ve never come close to hitting my children; no dilemma is solved by hitting.
And it’s a kid’s job to push the envelope and see what they can get away with.
Right, so I don’t think it was a lack of love. It was ineptitude.
This dovetails into what the central issue of this movie is, at least for me. I interpret it as, “Before you condemn someone, walk a mile in their shoes.” These are first-generation Jewish Americans whose parents were directly touched by the Holocaust, and they see assimilation as a dream. There’s all this talk about “a seat at the table” and making whatever moves it takes to give their kids a good life. And with that come some clear moral transgressions, essentially the climax of your film. The “seat at the table” line, and “life isn’t fair” line, are used to rationalize taking advantage of things wherever you can. This felt extremely familiar to me.
Our whole point making this film was to make the opposite of a judgmental or condemning film. A “virtue signaling” film. My own behavior at times was execrable. My parents’ behavior was, at times, wretched. Even my grandfather, who in my mind was a divine figure, he made his own little contribution to an unequal world. He gave up on the system. He told my parents repeatedly, behind my back, to take me out of the public school, where I wanted to stay. Now, I understand why he did it. And, in some ways, he was right. But he did it because he gave up.
He did it because the world is not fair. And the father character at the end knows it.
I find that scene at the end with the father horrifying. But many have said to me, “It’s no big deal, he says life isn’t fair, we all knew that,” and my view isn’t that it is new information. It’s a father telling a son to give up, which is horrifying.
It’s a tough pill to swallow for some, perhaps, because we have familiarity with it.
Someone else asked me if it was “white guilt.” To that I say no. I have no guilt at all. I was 12, what the fuck else was I going to do? I don’t have guilt about it. Regret, that’s a different thing. Ethical and moral regret, but not guilt.
It must be strange to talk about something as a movie when it is so close to your actual life. I know there are changes and exaggerations — I read that you didn’t actually steal a computer, but it was a collection of “Star Trek” blueprints, or something?
Oh, you did your research. Well, the computer was part of the plan. The school had Apple II+ computers, and that was unique, I had never seen a computer before, that whole scene in the movie is true. So we planned to steal them. But at the time, Bloomingdale’s had a store in Fresh Meadows, Queens. It didn’t last long. In the basement was a bookstore, and in there were “Star Trek” blueprints for $50. In 1980 that’s a lot of money.
You could pick up your phone and buy them on eBay right now.
I’ve never tried, I never thought about it. I remember it was a blue and yellow packet in plastic.
You’ll find it.
[James Gray picks up his phone and starts poking.] Oh my God. Oh my God, here it is! Yellow and blue. And you know how much it costs?
Fifty dollars?
Fifty dollars. Inflation doesn’t touch everything.
You gonna do it?
“Star Trek: The Motion Picture.”
A good but flawed movie. Robert Wise.
I love Robert Wise. I just showed my kids “Run Silent, Run Deep.” Well, anyway, to get back to it, I decided to just put as much of the most personal stuff I could think of and put it in this movie.
Like your father, played so wonderfully by Jeremy Strong, using the expression “from hunger.” A lot of people may not know what the hell he means by that.
Including Jeremy Strong!
Oh no!
He said, “What does this mean, ‘from hunger?’” I said, “It’s the worst! Do you think we should change it?” He said, “Did your father actually say this?” I said, “Yes, all the time!” So he wanted to keep it in. You are right, some have come up to me and said, “What does ‘your friend from hunger’ mean?” It means he’s the worst!
I understand your father passed away recently.
He died two months into post-production on this, from COVID.
Did he know you were working on this film?
He did. And it… there’s such sadness, for me, that he did not get a chance to see it.
You have made other films about fathers and sons, and some have been a little harsh. Now, he does beat the snot out of you in that one scene in the bathroom, but this movie does humanize him. Do you think people will watch this and think your father was a righteous man?
I think they will be confused about what to think. Which is exactly the right thing. People do the best they can. As did my mother. When she says to me, “You are my whole life, you and your brother,” that’s a terrible burden to put on a little boy. It’s cruel, almost. Catastrophe is often a complex weave of people with good intentions.
Anthony Hopkins is so good in this, and it’s funny because you do not think of him as “the Jewish grandfather.” But when he says “be a mensch,” my God he pulls it off.
Okay, take a look at this. [Gray whips out his phone again.] This is my grandfather. Is that a stretch? He looks just like Tony Hopkins. He came from Ukraine via England in Southampton. We changed it in the movie to Liverpool so they could talk about The Beatles. But he was from Southampton and he was an urbane guy. And quite frankly I have a strong rejection of the cliché [impersonating shtetl accent, hunching over] “Hello, my name is Moishe, and I sell the pickles, I am the grandfather.” I’m sick of that. That wasn’t my grandfather, he was a delicate, urbane, sophisticated man.
That caricature you describe, it’s certainly real for some, but we’re not a monolithic culture.
Right, it’s a form of deep prejudice. Like Hitler saying Judaism is a race. My father’s father was also different, he came from Russia and had huge forearms and wore a T-shirt around the house like Robert De Niro. A huge contrast.
Tell my readers something fun about Tovah Feldshuh.
She’s a great actor, and that’s no joke. She had such an understanding of that character. She loved to use the set. We had some of those Time-Life art books, and she just would grab them and sit on set, as my grandmother would. She said, “I want tinted glasses,” and I said, “Oh my grandmother had those,” and she fired back, “Of course she did!” She understood it completely, it was almost creepy.
We’re running out of time, but your film, as did your life, crossed paths with the Trump family in a very interesting way, which has brought the movie some degree of attention. I want to ask you about this in a way that not everyone else has asked you.
What do you want to know? I’ll give you a quick soundbite on Trump before they yank you out of here.
By-and-large American Jews do not support Trump, but there’s a loud minority that do. How does this make you feel?
Listen, there were Judenrat in Europe, too.
Okay, that’s a soundbite.
Look, I find it hard to believe that someone can look at Trump and not see Mussolini. And not see Hitler. Even down to the showbiz clownishness. Look, if you had any distance from Hitler at the time —
He looked like Charlie Chaplin!
Yes, a comic figure. The mustache? Chaplin knew it and made “The Great Dictator.” Those gestures? He practiced that in a mirror, it wasn’t accidental. So it’s like the expression “it’s all fun and games until someone gets hurt.” So he was funny and goofy… until he wasn’t.
I cannot explain Jews who think of Trump with positive feelings. His antisemitism is quite clear, as is his racism. Jews through history have had a kinship with civil rights. [Andrew] Goodman, [Michael] Schwerner, and [James] Chaney, right? [The trio of civil rights activists were murdered in 1964 and later became the subjects of the film “Mississippi Burning.”]
So for anyone who is Jewish to look at this man and see a positive figure, it’s an act of treason to me.
