Warning against societal fissures, Herzog praises Shin Bet’s Bar for bowing out

Speaking to The Times of Israel ahead of Israel’s 77th Independence Day, President Isaac Herzog said he believes embattled Shin Bet chief Ronen Bar “did the right thing” by announcing this week that he would step down from his post in June.

“There’s no denying he suffered a serious failure in the hours leading up to the October 7 attack — a failure he himself has acknowledged,” the president told The Times of Israel.

The fate of Bar, a veteran intelligence official, has become one of the main lightning rods in public debates over Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s conduct, the ostensible existence of a left-wing “deep state,” and the balance of power among Israel’s branches of government.

In a time of sharp political disagreements within Israel — and concerns from both sides of the political spectrum over the future of the country — Herzog, a former Labor party leader who is more than halfway through his seven-year term, has positioned himself as the voice of compromise and unity.

The president spoke to The Times of Israel on Saturday night, and again on Wednesday, returning to the existential danger posed by the current political climate and expressing a vision for the return of hostages, the future of the country, and a new relationship between Israeli Jews and their brethren around the world.

As president, he said, his mission is “to focus on bringing our public arena into de-escalation of the inner tensions which are undermining our togetherness and are very dangerous.”

Herzog stressed that Hamas’s ability to pour through Israel’s border defenses on October 7, 2023, reflected a “systemic collapse at every level,” one that must be thoroughly investigated by an independent commission of inquiry established by the state.

Netanyahu has resisted a state commission of inquiry into the October 7, 2023, attacks, arguing that it would be inherently biased against him and his government.

At the same time, he has railed against Bar as bearing responsibility for the day’s failures and in March won government approval to fire the Shin Bet chief, though the sacking was temporarily frozen by the High Court.

Bar, who had resisted his dismissal, announced Monday that he would step down from his position on June 15, citing personal responsibility for the agency’s failure to prevent the October 7 attack, in a move that seemingly put an end to the divisive legal battle that had brewed over his ouster.

“His decision reflects integrity, which is critical for leadership and values — both within the organization and outwardly, toward the Israeli public and the bereaved families,” Herzog said of Bar.

“Now, we must appoint someone who meets the necessary qualifications, has strong leadership skills, and can lead the Shin Bet to new heights, stabilize it, and restore its exceptional reputation.”

On negotiations to free the 59 hostages remaining in Gaza, Herzog avoided making any detailed critiques of Netanyahu’s approach: “These are very delicate hours of negotiations, a lot of back and forth, a lot going on. I keep cautious about what I can say. All I can say is that we should do our utmost to bring them back home, and whenever needed, walk the extra mile in order to do that.”

An Israeli team reportedly traveled to Cairo Monday night for talks on a possible Gaza ceasefire and hostage release deal, but an Israeli official on Tuesday said Arabic media reports of a  preliminary deal to release some captives as soon as May were “inaccurate.”

Though he said bringing back the hostages is Israel’s top priority, Herzog said it is possible to get them out of Gaza while also toppling Hamas. The president also called concerns that Israel pays too high a price to release hostages “valid.”

While reservists continue to spend months away from home and work fighting in Gaza, the IDF continues to allow the vast majority of draft-age ultra-Orthodox men to avoid military service.

“I call upon brothers and sisters from the Haredi world to do whatever they can to mobilize and join the army,” said Herzog. He also praised the army for creating dedicated units for Haredi soldiers.

“I believe that by constant dialogue, we can come to better terms on this issue,” he said.

The president also attempted to smooth over ruffled feathers with the Vatican after Israel refused to join a global outpouring of condolences for Pope Francis due to the pontiff’s comments on Gaza.

Israel stirred controversy by sending only an ambassador to Pope Francis’s funeral on Saturday, and the Foreign Ministry erased a laconic condolence post on social media, but Herzog stressed “the very open and frank relationship with the Holy See” his family has maintained for three generations.

His grandfather, Ashkenazi chief rabbi Isaac Halevi Herzog, met with pope Pius XII after the Holocaust to enlist his help in locating and returning Jewish children who were hidden in Catholic monasteries and schools. The president’s uncle, Jacob Herzog, was Israel’s main interlocutor with the Holy See after 1948, and was the diplomat in charge of the first agreement signed between the two countries.

“I make it a very clear point of assisting, fostering, and defending Christian communities in Israel,” said Herzog, adding that he was supposed to meet Francis in Rome in February before the pope fell ill.

“I cannot shy away from the fact that we also had heavy criticism of the pope’s comments following the October 7 massacre,” Herzog noted.

He stressed that he issued an “emotional statement” in multiple languages on Francis’s passing, and personally informed the Vatican’s nuncio in Israel about his death, as well as speaking to the Latin patriarch in Jerusalem.

“I believe always that we should make sure to respect even those who we have a difference of opinion with,” said the president.

Herzog’s focus as president, especially of late, has been on cooling the public discourse, and calling on Israelis to focus on the many things that unite them.

“I am alarmed,” he said, “because the rhetoric has exceeded any precedent. People are saying words or writing things or expressing them in a very dangerous way.”

Herzog argued that the vast majority of Israelis are “totally fed up from this polarization and hatred.”

“People want to stay together,” he insisted. “They want to be together.”

He said a key element in calming tensions would be to pass a Basic Law delineating when the Supreme Court can abolish or amend a law, and what kind of majority it needs to do so.

“This is something that’s being left open, and it’s a cause of huge friction,” said Herzog.

He added that the country’s founders made a mistake by not creating a written constitution.

Beyond attempting to unify factions within Israel, Herzog is working to bring together Jewish leaders from around the world to discuss the future of the Jewish nation. In March, some 150 members of his Voice of the People initiative convened for an inaugural summit.

“We shall overcome together,” he said, in a message aimed at the Jewish Diaspora. “These are not easy times. We have to stick together because the war that was waged against us was a war against our ability to exist as a nation of Jews who have our only nation-state, the State of Israel.”

The interview took place in English. The transcript has been lightly edited for brevity and clarity.

The Times of Israel: Let’s start with the burial of  Pope Francis. The day he died, you expressed your condolences, but there’s been some criticism of the way other Israeli officials failed to express themselves, and of the level of representation at the funeral. Do you think that Israel’s reaction to the pope’s death was appropriate, and do you think that we’ve done some damage to the ties there?

President Isaac Herzog: Throughout my life, and in fact, for three generations, my family has had a very open and frank relationship with the Holy See. It was my late grandfather [rabbi Isaac Halevi Herzog], who immediately after the Holocaust, in February 1946, came to pope Pius XII, who was under massive criticism for his indifference during the Holocaust. My grandfather came to him to demand the opening of monasteries where Jewish children were held, and it was a very historic meeting.

After that, my uncle Jacob laid the groundwork for the unique relationship that the State of Israel has with the Christian communities, including the Holy See.

And I, as cabinet secretary and as minister, was in charge of the visits of pope John Paul II and pope Benedict XVI in Israel. And I make a very clear point of assisting, fostering, and defending Christian communities in Israel.

I was actually scheduled to meet with Pope Francis in Rome in February. Unfortunately, he was hospitalized two days before the planned meeting and it was canceled.

I cannot shy away from the fact that we also had heavy criticism of the pope’s comments following the October 7 massacre. I said it to him myself, and also in the media, during the early stages of the war.

But I did issue a very comprehensive and emotional statement regarding his passing on that day, which I issued in multiple languages. And I personally was the one who informed the nuncio, the ambassador of the Holy See in Israel, about the sad news of the passing of Pope Francis. And I spoke also to the cardinal of Jerusalem, Cardinal Pierbattista Pizzaballa, immediately.

So I think that when it comes to the head of state, your humble servant, we did express our sorrow.

And it was a decision of our government to send the ambassador. People can view it from various angles. I believe always that we should make sure to respect even those who we have a difference of opinion with.

Let’s come back to Israel. I know you can’t take a political side, but you do speak out about issues that you identify in the political conversation. How do you decide which issues it’s appropriate for the president of Israel to speak about?

It’s a very good question, because I do not see myself as an endless machine of responding to all statements and developments and actions and words and deeds of people from all over, because I would basically go crazy.

We are in a very heated era in our public life. It’s no secret.

My mission, as I made clear, is to focus on bringing our public arena into de-escalation of the inner tensions which are undermining our togetherness and are very dangerous, in my mind. I look at the goal of reaching Israel’s 80th year more unified and less divided.

I see thousands of Israelis a week. I find a much larger common denominator in our society. And this was my main message in my Holocaust memorial ceremony speech in Yad Vashem. The vast majority of Israelis are totally fed up from this polarization and hatred that they see.

People want to stay together. They want to be together.

And they understand that our own enemies really don’t give a damn if the Israeli or Jew in front of their eyes believes in the government or believes in the opposition. Our enemies want to butcher all of them. And this is the fact that we have to deal with and understand and disseminate. And this is my message to our people.

One of the first issues you really took a leadership role on was the judicial overhaul in 2023. Why do you think your attempts to hammer out a compromise didn’t work? What lessons did you take from that experience to the issues that you’re talking about today?

I am adamant, adamant, even if I stay alone, and I’ll be the only Israeli who believes in it, I will be there, focused solely on trying to find compromises within our public sphere.

We have a huge debate on issues of critical importance. It started with the judicial reform, and by the way, it is something that is affecting so many other divisive issues.

But truly, I believe that the differences are not wide and they’re all bridgeable. We have to make an effort to do that. And especially in a vibrant democracy such as ours, we should keep all our institutions strong, independent, doing their job.

And that is why I will try to do that in most of the debates that are engulfing us these days.

You’ve made speeches recently on irresponsible behavior, on those who are “trying to take us apart from within.” What is it that you saw that made you so alarmed? Where do you see that people are trying to take us apart from within?

First and foremost, I am so deeply proud of the amazing achievements of Israel and the people of Israel. In all fields, in all walks of life. Israelis are leaders in their fields around the world, while at home we see every week, every day, the most amazing social, academic, cultural initiatives and more.

I am indeed alarmed because I think that the rhetoric has exceeded any precedent. People are saying words or writing things or expressing them in a very dangerous way.

And I believe that the vast majority of Israelis believe in a few rules way above all the storms around us. They believe in our basic civil rights and the duty to protect them. They believe in obeying the law. They believe in adhering to judgments of the court, and they detest any call for what is called civil war of any kind or civil unrest.

Unfortunately, you have people, especially on the fringes, but sometimes it lurks into mainstream politics, that use rhetoric that is totally unacceptable and call for things such as not obeying judgments, or calling the prime minister the enemy, or calling the head of Shin Bet the head of the mob, who deserves to be hanged, and things like that.

All these things are terrible and must be dealt with because we should not normalize them in any way.

A written constitution — do you think if we had the rules of the game written down and agreed upon, it would make these fights a lot easier to deal with?

I’ve been dealing with this issue most of my life.

Historically, I think it was a mistake in David Ben Gurion’s time not to lay down a written constitution.

There was a reason. He said it’s too premature for us to do so.

Actually, then the system went into the current structure, which is legislating Basic Laws as chapters of the constitution. However, as you know, last year, the Supreme Court abolished an amendment to a certain Basic Law, which, again, brought forward the question of the divisions and the borderlines between the three arms of government.

I believe that a key element in relaxing the situation will be to legislate a Basic Law: Legislation — under which criteria can the Supreme Court can abolish a law, and which law can abolish or amend, and by what majority? How big a panel of judges and what majority of judges?

This is something that’s being left open, and it’s a cause of huge friction. And I think the friction comes from, of course, the interpretation of what is Jewish and what is democratic, something which I believe complements our life, but there are people who want to divide it.

We are a nation that not only brought to humanity the bulk of books, but also a lot of the rules of Judaism were the founding principles of what you call the modern republic structure.

You mentioned the people on the fringes. We see that there’s this element in the West Bank that continues to attack Palestinian civilians. I’m sure that goes against the beliefs and feelings of most Israelis, but it’s not being dealt with. Do you think that the state is failing to deal with these extremist elements and that something else has to be done here?

I would say that it’s too much of a generalization to say it’s not being dealt with. It’s been dealt with by many arms of government and definitely a legal and adjudication system. There is criticism on the way we are handling some of the cases.

But I must tell you that the more I delve into it — first of all, in some instances, it has to do with juvenile delinquency, which has to be dealt with in a multidisciplinary way, both social services, education services, youth, officer, and of course, police and the legal system.

There are discussions now between various arms of government about how to do it better, because there is a platform of working together on this, what you call Hilltop Youth.

In addition to that, I would be careful to generalize that Israel is not doing anything. I think, also because of the fact that it’s become a big topic in the public arena, there’s more awareness of it. But we should improve in certain cases. And at least for my part, I’m doing my best.

We’re back to war in the Gaza Strip. We lost more soldiers over the weekend. Do you think this is the right way to pressure Hamas, or do you believe that we’re endangering the hostages by going back to war?

First of all, I’m convinced that the army is doing its best. I look in the eyes of the chief of staff [Eyal Zamir], who is a very serious man. The army is doing its best.

We have a main goal to bring back our hostages. I said it when I received the credentials of US Ambassador [Mike] Huckabee just a few days ago. This is our top priority.

We want to bring all of them back, all of them, till the last one of them.

Now, these are very delicate hours of negotiations, a lot of back and forth, a lot of stuff going on. I keep cautious about what I can say. All I can say is that we should do our utmost to bring them back home, and whenever needed, walk the extra mile in order to do that.

You’ve spoken very eloquently, repeatedly, about the need to do everything we can to bring them back. But there are people who say, sometimes the price is too high. The terrorists released in the 2004 Tenenbaum deal killed over 200 Israelis. Yahya Sinwar was released in the 2011 Gilad Shalit deal. Is there a price that a country simply cannot pay, unfortunately, to release hostages?

I’m not indifferent to this. On the contrary, I think these are very valid comments. I think that the Israelis whose loved ones were killed by these barbaric people who were then released are heroes in and of themselves, and I say to them, Thank you, wholeheartedly.

I think that it is something to consider. It’s definitely a valid consideration.

And I believe that between the two goals of the war, which is getting rid of Hamas on the one hand and bringing back all the hostages, there is still an open vacant area where we can fill in with various alternatives which we are working on, which we should about in trying to bring as many hostages as we can, every last one of them, and also getting Hamas out.

We hear leaks here and there in the last few days. Let’s see how serious it is.

The burden on the reservists serving in Gaza is obviously very heavy.  Do you think the government is doing enough to get the Haredim to serve? And you brought up your grandfather, the chief rabbi — is there any perspective that you get from his teachings, from his positions on Haredi Jews serving the state?

I come from a family that believes totally in serving our nation with the olive color uniforms in various ranks, including in the recent war.

I would add that my father, who was a general and one of the founders of the IDF, was a war hero in World War II and in Israel.

My father always said and told us, and he was, of course, the president of Israel, that my grandfather, who was one of the greatest sages of the Jewish world at the time and until today, and a devout, Haredi rabbi, always told him, “If you’re not intending to be a rabbi in Israel, go and be an officer of the Israeli army.”

And it was my late grandfather who wrote the prayer for the well-being of the state and the well-being of the army, of the soldiers.

But there’s also realpolitik, meaning this is a weighty issue since the establishment of the state. I call upon my brothers and sisters from the Haredi world to do whatever they can to mobilize and join the army.

And of course, I see positively the fact that the military, the IDF, has now put a major focus on creating the units and structures that fit the Haredi world and can enable them a much safer environment to meet their initial fears and challenges.

I believe that by constant dialogue, we can come to better terms on this issue.

Now that Shin Bet chief Ronen Bar has said he will step down, do you think that this should have happened earlier? And what damage did the public fight over his dismissal cause, in your opinion?

First, it’s important to say a few words in support of Ronen Bar.

I see terrible personal attacks and accusations against him — all kinds of awful statements directed at someone who has served the people of Israel with extraordinary bravery and dedication for decades, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

There’s no denying he suffered a serious failure in the hours leading up to the October 7th attack — a failure he himself has acknowledged. It was a grave error, which I do not minimize for a second, and for that reason he announced he would step down. But we must remember this was a systemic collapse at every level, and must be thoroughly investigated by a state commission of inquiry.

Ronen Bar did the right thing by taking responsibility, and also by deciding to leave his position in the coming weeks.

His decision reflects integrity, which is critical for leadership and values — both within the organization and outwardly, toward the Israeli public and the bereaved families.

Now, we must appoint someone who meets the necessary qualifications, has strong leadership skills, and can lead the Shin Bet to new heights, stabilize it, and restore its exceptional reputation.

When you look at the state of the US-Israel relationship, how do you feel — are you worried that perhaps we’ve lost half of the US? Do you think there’s something we can do differently to regain support in the Democratic Party and among the youth in America?

I always believe in bipartisanship and I’m adamantly sticking to it now.

Over the past week, I met a bipartisan delegation of Republican and Democratic elected officials. I keep in contact with all parties concerned, definitely with the White House and the executive branch, the elected branch, Senate and Congress, and others.

We should put a major focus on dialogue with all, explaining our position.

I should also make clear that we’ve seen very disturbing phenomena. I grew up in the United States. I’m an America-phile. I grew up in America. I graduated school in America, and I never believed that I would hear and see such terrible things said about Israel and Jews on campuses or around schools, the JCCs, and elsewhere. And this requires huge attention on our part as a state, as a nation, to keep in touch with all parties concerned.

I’m very appreciative of President Trump’s incredible support to the State of Israel. I had very open, good relations and friendly relations also with Biden and with his administration.

I hope to be able to see President Trump in Israel in the foreseeable future and host him here as well.

You have your Voice of the People initiative. Is there something that is wrong or that we need to improve in the way Israel sees the Diaspora community and the way it deals with it? What needs to change there in your opinion?

I have huge respect for your website because it’s covering the entire Jewish world and is read by many Jews around the world.

We care. We care here from Israel about our brothers and sisters around the world.

In my Holocaust Memorial speech, I made a point to speak, and I said, I’m speaking not only to those in Israel, but to our sisters and brothers in the Diaspora, where I said, “We shall overcome together.”

These are not easy times. We have to stick together because the war that was waged against us was a war against our ability to exist as a nation of Jews who have our only nation-state, the state of Israel.

It’s also a war against the free world, and we are defending the free world in our fight with jihadism. These brutal terrorists holding our brothers and sisters in a dark room. The way they treat them is a reminder to all that in each generation, somebody wants to violate us.

That is why we have to stick together and not be naive. We are not perfect. We are not. But we should get to know each other and do better.

And that was the core of my initiative, Voice of the People. It came from this need to identify the future leadership of the Jewish world and bring all communities together.

The first cohort met in Haifa in early March, and it was just outstanding to see 150 Jews of my council, the Voice of the People, from all facets of Judaism, some of them totally unknown to others, speak openly for a week and deliberate about the future the Jewish world, its challenges.

We’re very proud of the cohort members. And of course, I will continue that project, that initiative, so that it will help strengthen and build the future of the Jewish world.